Maps, Directions, and Place Reviews
Feingold diet and using Quackwatch as a source
has turned into a bloated monster... oy. Jytdog (talk) 07:03, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ I think the example Igave above (CFS) shows why we cannot use QW as a source. Really, need I say more? MLPainless (talk) 13:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ A1, you have to know when to walk away. Nobody here is going to be interested in overturning arbcom (and for that, I am not even sure we can - please see WP:CONEXCEPT) nor interested in rejecting QW or SBM for the things where it is so useful. You are getting no traction; please drop the stick. I won't be responding further. Jytdog (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Nothing said here changes the arbcom ruling, or the usefulness of Quackwatch and SBM for calling pseudoscience, pseudoscience. They are both useful sources. Yes they need to be used with care. But they have their place in the MEDRS world. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
We have MEDRS-sources so there's no need to use QW. -A1candidate (talk) 18:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
Quackwatch is essentially one person, Stephen Barrett, now 81 years old. What do we know about him? I did a little research and found a page at www.quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm that has some interesting data on him (I cannot post the link here because WP bans links to the site, probably because it is not a RS itself). I think everyone here supporting the use of Quackwatch as a source needs to be aware who Barrett really is. If any of the info on that page is true, QW should be immediately removed from the project as a source. MLPainless (talk) 03:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
It would appear Barrett is currently on the receiving end of a lawsuit by "Doctor's Data" that seems to be moving successfully against him, with punitive damages of $20M ... more at www.bolenreport.com MLPainless (talk) 04:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Yah, last year Doctor's Data was still advertising provoked heavy metal testing, and their website said: Analysis of the levels of toxic metals in urine after the administration of a metal detoxification agent is an objective way to evaluate the accumulation of toxic metals. One cannot draw valid conclusions about adverse health effects of metals without assessing net retention. [...] To evaluate net retention, one compares the levels of metals in urine before and after the administration of a pharmaceutical metal detoxification agent such as EDTA, DMSA or DMPS. The last three are chelation agents, and this whole statement needs a great big {citation needed}. The scientific community agrees that serum and urine heavy metals can be used to diagnose heavy metal poisoning, but NOBODY in the mainstreams believes that standards exist for "provoked testing" where you give a chelator and THEN test levels in the urine. But Doctor's Data was doing that, and forgetting to tell their clients that their test result levels of "high" could only be read for the non-provoked state, and that all bets were off if you'd been given a chelator (after which everybody excretes more). The tests results were then invalid, and in my opinion and Barrett's could be expected to lead to false diagnosis of heavy metal poisoning. Barrett in 2010 caught Doctor's Data doing this, and wrote about it. Doctor's Data threatened to sue him unless he retracted. He said "What am I supposed to retract? You know full well your tests are not valid under chelator provokation-- nobody's are." So they sued him. The case has dragged on through deep comprehensive discovery, which is designed to bankrupt. I think somebody is hoping the judge isn't sophisticated enough to understand the difference between provoked and unprovoked mercury urine levels, even with Barrett's lawyers trying to explain it. Doctor's Data even had some "hired gun" chemists testify that urine mercury testing is scientific, without explaining the fine details of when it is scientific (unprovoked), and when it isn't scientific (when done like Doctor's Data recommended). And that's what's happening.
Oh, and Tim Bolen has been following the whole thing as though it was a college rape allegation, and he was Rolling Stone. Meanwhile, Doctor's Data has taken down the wording above, and you can't find it on their website in 2014. But they did that quietly, without admitting anything. Now they say: [2] Additionally, the comparison of urine element concentrations before and after administration of a chelator can be used to estimate net retention of potentially toxic elements. Subsequent urine element analyses, also following the administration of a chelator, are useful for monitoring the efficacy of metal detoxification therapy. That's language not as strong, but it still requires a big {citation needed} because in the opinion of myself and the mainstream literature, there is no science behind it. SBHarris 06:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Barrett and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
I detailed above how I had an email argument with Barrett, the 81-yr old behind QuackWatch, in the 1990s about Chronic fatigue syndrome. In those days, his site stated openly that CFS was nothing more than a scam. That's how he put it. That's despite the fact that there was already a lot of published science on CFS at that time. Modern medicine has proved beyond doubt that CFS is real, as screeds of research shows.
I went back today to see if Barrett has updated his views. It seems he has stepped back from his idiocy, but not far. He is still referring to CFS as a "fad" diagnosis. [3]. He states now that in order to be diagnosed with CFS, the following needs to pertain: "fatigue persists or recurs for at least six months and is severe enough to reduce the patient's activity level by more than half. In addition, the fatigue should be accompanied by several other symptoms, such as severe headaches, low-grade fever, joint or muscle pain, general muscle weakness, sleep disturbance, and various psychological symptoms."
Unfortunately, he is incorrect again. The CDC has a definitive list of diagnostic criteria here that does not quite agree with Barrett's. Barrett's (pejorative methinks) reference to "various psychological symptoms" is a hangover from his days of outright denial, when he told me the whole thing was a scam and probably just a psychological problem with the patient.
So not much has changed. A dinosaur remains a dinosaur! MLPainless (talk) 21:28, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ MLPainless, you are obviously not here to build an encyclopedia. You are here to advocate fringe POV, attack "big pharma" and the "pharmaceutical industry", attack Quackwatch and Barrett, and defend alternative medicine which has little or no evidence of effect. Our experience here at Wikipedia invariably shows that those who come here and attack Quackwatch and Barrett are so misguided that they just create problems of this type. They get their information from extremely fringe and libelous sources. You are getting yours from TB, who is indefinitely banned here, and from his websites, which are all blacklisted. They aren't just extremely unreliable, they are poison, somewhat like trying to get truth from Hannity or Limbaugh. Reading that content will poison your mind. It's fabrications and libelous smears, all written to defend TB's paymasters, who are usually convicted of crimes. His most notable one was the notorious cancer quack Hulda Clark. Since that's where you get your information, there is little hope that you will be able to contribute much of worth, and it will always be viewed with suspicion, your every action will be watched, and your editing will be a path of disruption. Please find somewhere else to spew your nonsense. Write a blog. If you don't radically change, stop attacking QW and Barrett with BLP violating lies from TB, and pushing nonsense, you'll likely get banned soon. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:28, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe it'd be best if someone not involved in this conversation close it? It doesn't seem like anything is really beyond ranting and some soapboxing on how an editor doesn't like a particular site with no indication that general consensus on the source will change. It's getting a bit out of hand now and it seems like now is as good as any time to drop the stick. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
A peer-reviewed paper citing Wikipedia
The paper is here. Is it a problem that they start off with "According to Wikipedia"? Everymorning talk 14:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
STI versus STD
A discussion regarding what the article should be called is here [6] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:50, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Free 'RSC Gold' accounts
I am pleased to announce, as Wikimedian in Residence at the Royal Society of Chemistry, the donation of 100 "RSC Gold" accounts, for use by Wikipedia editors wishing to use RSC journal content to expand articles on chemistry-related topics (including, of course, drugs). Please visit Wikipedia:RSC Gold for details, to check your eligibility, and to request an account. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Parent Management Training
Parent Management Training (PMT) is a student-edited article that is in pretty good shape, but I could use some help if anyone has time.
Recent reviews suggest that PMT is effective in some populations (the underserved poopulations haven't yet made it into the article, so I'm concerned there's a bit of positive bias, not sure since I don't have full journal access, though), but PMT can be costly, and someone needs to access the recent reviews to flush out the missing issues of for whom it has been shown effective for what, and what are the cost and other negative considerations/implications. Besides lack of journal access, I have the flu and mush-brain.
I'm concerned about mention of four specific "brands" of PMT, because the sourcing wasn't strong, but an IP has just posted an interesting website from (I think?) the State of CA that gives support to the specific brands of PMT. PMT is a difficult and costly decision that parents of neurologically different children must make: this article is already decent, and it would be grand to make it better.
Could others have a look in at Talk:Parent management training#Update, specifically, this website as support for the statement (now poorly sourced):
- Specific treatments that can be broadly characterized as PMT include but are not limited to Parent-Child Interaction Therapy (PCIT), Incredible Years (IY), Positive Parenting Program (Triple P), and Parent Management Training-Oregon Model (PMTO)
Much obliged, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Never mind :) I've gotten my hands on five recent reviews, and I think I can handle this one! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Student editing again (term-end)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, it is term-end, when poor student edits show up in time for grading. Can we get a list of articles hit, so we can later clean up? I am aware of so far: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Autism (FA, reverted as of now)
- Hearing loss (a complete mess, but some of the mess pre-dates students)
- Posttraumatic stress disorder (have not had time to look)
- Quercetin (reverted earlier today and WP:3RR warning issued, with a user Talk page explanation) -- I am new watching the Wikiproject Medicine board and am unfamiliar with the practice you are referring to Sandy of (high school?) students being encouraged by teachers or thinking alone that entering content with weak English syntax and no observance of WP:MOS or WP:MEDMOS is a way to pass a school test. This is requiring significant effort and time to get a message through; is a screening/reverting tool available? Brief explanation of what you know please? Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 15:37, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hello. Some of this is part of that women and health class, and some seems to be unrelated. I emailed the professor and one of the campus ambassadors. This class is in my city and I would like to support it. I am meeting the campus ambassador in person in a few days. If the professor would have me, I would meet them and the class too. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:57, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
A way forward?
I have been thinking about this today (after Guettarda bright it up) to see if there is a way of being proactive and making for a better environment for students. Perhaps if we draw up a list of articles that are significantly incomplete yet pretty broad - that students could easily find secondary sources with good material that is otherwise missing or otherwise unreferenced? That way (a) we get more articles improved, and (b) students don't get disheartened getting their edits reverted.....? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:54, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- "Training for students: a four-part training intended for students doing assignments on Wikipedia, with more detailed introductions to core Wikipedia policies, editing basics, and more specific editing advice for students" - from p. 1 "In total, the four modules should take about one hour to complete."
- "Training for educators: a four-part training for professors and other educators who want to run Wikipedia assignments for class, with introductions to core Wikipedia policies, editing basics, and an overview of best practices for designing and implementing Wikipedia assignments" - "In total, the four modules should take about one to one-and-a-half hours to complete."
- "Training for Wikipedia Ambassadors: a four-part training for Wikipedia Campus and Online Ambassadors, with introductions to core policies and editing basics for those new to editing and an overview of best practices for Wikipedia assignments" - "In total, the four modules should take about one to one-and-a-half hours to complete."
examples
- Renal colic - 254 words..possible DYK there....
- Dyspepsia - big segments missing
- Encephalopathy
- Enuresis
Boston College and Barnard College student editor problems
Copied from User talk:Doc James, in response to the professor of the Quercetin article: We don't know if what you represent is true because a) you have apparently decided to no longer run a course page, making it harder for us to check your students' edits, and b) your students tend to edit on obscure topics, so the problems may be going undetected. Even more so now that your course has essentially "gone underground" (no course page).
Certainly, as to past problems, your students did not understand primary sources when I encountered them in 2011, and my experience with your course led me to resign as FAC delegate to attempt to get some change (unsuccessful) in the Education Program. Your students' involvement forced me to clean up an obscure topic about which there is basically NO secondary review information, period, so I was forced to carefully use their primary sources to fix their work.
So, now, you are openly operating outside of the Education Program, making more work for regular editors (these problems should be dealt with by the paid staff of the Education Program, not us), and making it impossible to know who your students are and which articles they may have damaged with copyvio.
And your statement that "all stand in much better shape" is not because of your students. I had to edit the silly klazomania stub into compliance with policy and guideline, spending inordinate amounts of time trying to correct your student edits on an obscure topic that gets less than 20 page views per day. That article is improved because of MY time, not your students, and my time could have been used more productively elsewhere. And, of course, for all the time I in good faith invested in mentoring and bringing them up to speed on Wikipedia processes, policies and guidelines (holy cow, see my article edits and the talk page and my talk interaction with them), not a one of them returned or stayed on as Wikipedia editors, which is pretty much 100% true for all student/courses. YOUR course caused me to stop enjoying and stop editing. While you are running a course and had a total of something like four edits in 2013, and now a few in response to this for 2014. You are clearly not an involved professor.
It would be a great assistance to those of us who have to clean up the damage your students leave if you would a) register a course page, to b) work with the paid staff when your student edits need cleaning up, c) identify which other articles your students have edited, and d) engage the project yourself (that is, follow the edits your students make, make sure they are adding a course template on talk, etc). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:18, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ian (Wiki Ed) The professor described above is a Wikipedian who has been engaged and interested for years and the students are studying upper level health topics, and are the kind of audience which we want to have a good experience. There are significant problems with what the students did and I regret that students of this sort regularly are unable to navigate Wikipedia infrastructure to lead to students and Wikipedia functionaries having a mutually positive experience. If there is anything that you can do to help relieve tension here then it would be appreciated. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
- Education Program:Brock University/NUSC 1P10 Professional and Therapeutic Communications (Fall 2014) (Hearing loss)
- Education Program:Drake University/Global Youth Studies (Fall 2014) (Posttraumatic stress disorder)
- Some other unidentified course editing FA autism.
Massive blocks of text rolling in
It appears that the time to hand in assignments is approaching. It appear that no one has taught these students about WP:MEDRS, WP:MEDHOW or WP:MEDMOS. Most of them have also not read the articles they are editing.
The reason being that most appear to be writing their articles in word perfect just like any standard paper and than dropping it into Wikipedia.
Here are a few (some okay, but all a lot of work) -- Doc James 04:35, 9 December 2014 (UTC) -- continues after insertion below
- Equine therapy: has been hit a couple of years in a row.
- Diabetes mellitus type 1 29,000 characters and better than most [9]
- ADHD They did not even bother reading what was there before hand User talk:Lizabetic
- Anxiety disorder
- Premenstrual dysphoric disorder [10]
- Anorexia nervosa 30,000 bytes of content into the middle of the article.
- Systemic lupus erythematosus
- Posttraumatic stress disorder
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:35, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
- Clitoridectomy, another mess from the same course (Education Program:Barnard College/Women and Health (Fall 2014)) with the missing prof (User:BrooklynProf)[13] ... and I'm only halfway down that course list. So far, I've found one article they edited that isn't a total mess (just relatively less bad, that is). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:17, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
These also coming in soon
- Dextrallorphan
- Norcocaine
- Osemozotan
- Hydroxybupropion
- Bromperidol (done, all copy and paste violations Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC))
- Gabaculine
- Phenoperidine
- Xylazine (done. this one was horrible. blanked and redirected. Jytdog (talk) 04:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC))
- Eliprodil (done Jytdog (talk) 04:38, 12 December 2014 (UTC))
- Halazepam (cleaned and tagged Jytdog (talk) 14:54, 11 December 2014 (UTC))
- Tetrindole (done Jytdog (talk) 05:19, 11 December 2014 (UTC))
- Fenclonine (done Jytdog (talk) 03:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC))
- Omiloxetine (done Jytdog (talk) 02:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC))
- Cyclorphan (done Jytdog (talk) 01:44, 11 December 2014 (UTC))
- Talipexole (done Jytdog (talk) 04:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC))
- Indeloxazine (quick check done Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC))
- Gavestinel (quick check done Jytdog (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC))
- Benactyzine (quick check done Jytdog (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC))
- TAS-102 (quick check done Jytdog (talk))
- 4-Hydroxyamphetamine (reverted the changes, buncha primary sources and badly formatted refs. Jytdog (talk) 16:44, 9 December 2014 (UTC))
For anyone who is interested. They also LOVE their caps and their primary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:00, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
This question has probably been addressed numerous times before, but why exactly is the WMF promoting student editing in medical content if this happens with the vast majority of classes? Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 04:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- Dollars, and jobs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:20, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is a great idea in theory but not a good one in practice.
- The opposite of Wikipedia (a great idea in theory but an okay one in practice)
- These foundations are not on the ground dealing with the effects
- Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Another course
- Education Program:CUNY, Hunter College/Human Development (Fall 2014)
- Cshanesimpson, prof, another example of a prof who is not engaged, and the course page is incomplete, so we don't know how many or what articles are affected.
Scores of articles, including:
- Eating disorder not otherwise specified, unsourced text being added, poorly formatted.
SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
And another
- 148.166.169.61 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- 207.210.135.237 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
- User:Neuroassignment
Doesn't appear to be User:NeuroJoe students are at Sacred Heart University
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
A proposal
With respect to how to prevent this from happening again is being drafted here Wikipedia:Education_noticeboard/Incidents#Proposal_A Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:47, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
We are outnumbered
It appears that we are outnumbered at least 100 to 1.[14]
Massive amount of plagiarism with no one cleaning it up. Have proposed a mass roll back. Please comment there. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:52, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Don't forget to thank them for their good edits
Most of the edits are good. While you're dealing with the chaos, don't forget to thank students for their good edits.--Melody Lavender 12:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Another
Now that I understand more about how to use the Education Program interface, this just popped up:
- Education Program:University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)/Psychology 220A (Fall, 2014)
Indicating Sleep hygiene as a new Good Article (Talk:Sleep hygiene/GA1); I see multiple issues, including term-paper/essay-like statements, uncited text, very old sources, and WP:LAYOUT issues (eg WP:MSH and more).
Is there a lower GA standard for students? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Source query
Does anyone know what this citation is?
- PracticeWise, LLC (2014). Evidence-Based Youth Behavioral Health Services Literature Database. Retrieved from http://www.practicewise.com/pwebs_2/About.aspx
It is a link to a database, not an article title with an author and date. Don't know what to make of it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Summary, still needing cleanup
- Hearing loss (a complete mess, but some of the mess pre-dates students)
- Systemic lupus erythematosus
- Eating disorder not otherwise specified
- Anorexia nervosa 30,000 bytes of content into the middle of the article.
These were noted above by someone (unsigned)
- Renal colic - 254 words..possible DYK there....
- Dyspepsia - big segments missing
- Encephalopathy
- Enuresis
And the list of drug articles above that jytdog and Doc James are working through.
And:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/148.166.169.61
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/207.210.135.237
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Neuroassignment
There are still many more articles from the various problematic courses, complicated by the fact that profs had not filled in the course pages, so we would have to dig to find articles. Wiki Ed staff says they will try to do better on getting profs to fill in course pages. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
IP adding primary source
This IP is adding a primary source to article ref lists, even though the citation is unlikely to be used in the article.[15] Too many for me to tackle. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Videos promoting Wikipedia's health content
VGrigas (WMF), the Wikimedia Foundation storyteller, made the What did we edit in 2014? video. One Young World made a video of Jimbo talking and posted it to YouTube.
We have a project within English Wikipedia called WikiProject Medicine. And the WikiProject Medicine group they look after all the entries having to do with medicine and this group has a fairly fearsome and frightening reputation within Wikipedia because they're very very strict. They're one of the most strict groups of people who are really keen on making sure that our entries about medical issues are very very accurate and so they don't put up with any nonsense. Within that there's a subgroup called the Translation Task Force where they try to get people to take the best entries from various languages but particularly from English Wikipedia and translate them into other languages around the world.
And what they did in August was a really remarkable project. they partnered with a group called Translators without Borders and a translation company I think called Rubric and they took our entry on Ebola virus disease and they translated it - and its a very good entry - into sixty African languages...
Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
IP thanks you all for your work
I thought this comment might be a bit heartening to a lot of the editors here. John Carter (talk) 23:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Medical uses of propolis
I've had propolis on my list of articles to improve for awhile, but I've been rather stumped on how to tackle the myraid of medical issues in it. Basically, the reviews I've read so far seem to show there's research indicating there may be something worth checking out in select cases for future research, but nothing saying that it is actually recommended for specific uses. Definitely makes it tough (though interesting) to craft content there. I'm reading up on the literature a bit more now, but if someone is also interested in checking the article out and has some advice for what kind of content should stay or go or is even willing to pitch in, that would be helpful. The main nuance I'm having trouble with is how do we report (if at all) on what is more preliminary evidence in the research process. Thanks! Kingofaces43 (talk) 06:24, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
A potentially 'ideal' MEDRS (per DARE) that isn't currently sourced:
- Effectiveness of propolis on oral health: a systematic review (full text available via subscription access from here). 109.158.8.201 (talk) 20:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Lists of people with condition X
I recently stumbled upon a few articles that seemed rather odd:
List of people with bipolar disorder
List of people with major depressive disorder
List of people with schizophrenia
My first thought was that none of these topics appear to be notable for a Wikipedia article and if having the condition was noteworthy, it should then be included on the individual person's page. We generally don't make lists like this for most medical conditions, much less ones that have a huge potential number of people that could be the list that seems to border on a indiscriminate list for celebrities and the like. My first thought was to nominate these for deletion, but that's just my gut reaction after seeing all this. Any thoughts from folks here on having lists like those? Whether each person on it is properly sourced is one thing, but I'm questioning whether the notability is there for having such lists in the first place. Thanks. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:50, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ WP:LISTPEOPLE is pretty clear. Generally the person listed needs to fulfill BP notability criterion on his or her own, for reasons other than being on the list in question. So it would be silly to have a list of cancer victims, but not silly to have a list of cancer victims who were notable for something else and would have a WP article whether they had cancer or not. Once a person is famous, or at least notable per se enough to have an article or stub, then the number of lists they can be on after that, is infinite. And these can be trivial and very benign such as lists of (notable) people based on where they were born. WP has HUNDREDS of these: see Lists of people by nationality. If they can list a notable person by nationality (or by US state of birth, etc), they can certainly list them by hair color or whatever. See for example, the very long list of bow tie wearers. Yes, WP editors can be insane about this, and historically List of bowler hat wearers failed and was deleted, because some people just like bow ties more than bowler hats, and think a list of people who wear bow ties is intrinsically more interesting and contributes to human knowledge more than a list of people who wear bowler hats. Indeed, this makes no sense and boggles the mind. But it's Wikipedia and nothing if not inconsistent.
The only other thing to hinder medical lists is the BLP problem of stigmatization, but if the person is already famous for having a disease from many sources, that problem disappears, as WP has nothing more to contribute. And for (already) notable dead people where there are no BLP problems, it disappears more easily, so long as you have one reasonably reliable source for the disease or condition or therapy. SBHarris 01:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Just catching up here. See also:
- List of people with autism spectrum disorders (long subject to POV, since some people in the autism community see AS or high-functioning as a preferred "label")
- Retrospective diagnoses of autism, which is a prosified list
- Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome#Notable_individuals, my attempt to keep the cruft out of Tourette syndrome
I have found the Category:People with Tourette syndrome to be useful in making sure individual claims are well sourced. Samples: [16] [17] So, my overall take is that we cover notability for conditions, diseases, etc at WP:MEDMOS, and when articles/lists are not in the context of that notability for individuals (eg, as I did at Tourette syndrome), we should redirect these articles to the main article or the Sociological and cultural aspect sub-article, and be done with the cruft. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I've been involved in a few such medical lists, many moons ago. Some I created, some I've helped with, some are by other people. For example, List of people with epilepsy, List of poliomyelitis survivors, List of people with hepatitis C and List of brain tumor patients. These are all featured list. IIRC at least two of them have been sent to AfD (and survived). On the other hand, someone who had one of these conditions once wrote to me to thank me for writing such an inspirational and fascinating article. So opinions clearly vary. Read any popular science book or newspaper/magazine article about a disease, and chances are it will be described in terms of people. People who had the disease and people who cured or treated it. We are social animals after all. Perhaps a journalist will interview a non-notable family or perhaps they will simply do their research in the library. This information has educational value. The charities that care for people with or conduct research in these diseases often maintain lists such as these. Their focus is in providing inspiration, and for having famous people to help with fund-raising. Not everyone learns the same way. For some, a cold clinical description of polio's symptoms may be all they need, for others, examples of how polio affected people's lives is important. There's no better place to get such descriptions than from the biographies of notable people. Of course, such lists need to follow our policies and guidelines, particularly on sourcing and especially so for conditions with stigma. The last time I looked at category guidance it discouraged using categories for contentious labels. This is particularly true for posthumous diagnoses, where categories simply don't let us state how doubtful the diagnosis is. We also sometimes have trouble with "self diagnosis" of some diseases/disorders (e.g. autism spectrum). So I support the use of lists to make clear such diagnoses are posthumous or self-declared or to give alternative explanations, etc. I also support the guidance that such lists aren't a great idea for including in the disease article itself, unless very rare. If one must mention famous people in the disease article, then it should be in prose IMO, and anyone mentioned really must have an outstanding reason for inclusion. -- Colin°Talk 20:16, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Members of this WikiProject might find something of value in "List of original articles related to Wikipedia" before its possible deletion.
--Wavelength (talk) 21:01, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
- What I thought when I first discovered it earlier was that it clearly duplicates Academic studies about Wikipedia. Everymorning talk 22:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Elsevier ScienceDirect - 10 accounts, free for a year; HURRY HURRY
For those who don't read the spam at the top of their watchlists, Elsevier have offered 10 free accounts for 1 year for The Lancet etc etc, plus 20 for other areas of science. Places going fast. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 11:18, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Cerebellum at FAR
- Wikipedia:Featured article review/Cerebellum/archive1 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
IMS is back
So the former WikiCorrect-Health account has been renamed to Protein1EFN and it looks like IMS wants to get moving. (this was discussed a while back, archive is here). But briefly, IMS main business is providing intelligence/reports about the pharmaceutical industry - they are a big established company with a good name - and they want to start offering clients a service editing WP articles. Their first (awkward, badly handled) edits were to the Transcranial magnetic stimulation article, which one or more of their clients apparently wanted improved. The editor(s) at IMS made several mistakes, but I have emailed and spoken with the guy running that division, and he says that they very much want to do things right, especially so that they do nothing to harm IMS' good name. (their self interest is to our benefit, here)
Beginnings are fragile times, and I think that for everybody's benefit it would be useful to think about how to structure their work here so that it is as transparent and compliant with Terms of Use, policies, and guidelines as possible. I am copying and editing a comment I made on that account's Talk page, to open a wider discussion.
Every employee who edits WP for IMS needs an individual account, that only he or she uses. WP accounts are personal. They can be anonymous with regard to the person, but they need to be used only by one person. With regard to work each of those individuals does in WP via his or her account, per the Terms of Use, the fact that he or she works for IMS, the client or clients on behalf of which the work is being done, and any other affiliation needs to be disclosed (ideally on the relevant article Talk page, and on the editor's User page). And they should agree to follow the WP:COI guideline rigorously - no direct editing of articles, but rather, changes suggested on the article Talk page with an edit request template. And ideally, somebody from IMS will disclose all the accounts someplace central, and it would also be useful if the boss would provide a way to contact him or her here in WP, so that problematic edits by employees can be reported (as well as being handled primarily by our own processes - blocking, etc). I think there are probably two main ways to structure this.
- set up something like a course page - here is an example: Education_Program:Brock_University/NUSC_1P10_Professional_and_Therapeutic_Communications_(Fall_2014) - these are project pages, where all the participants are listed and all their edits are logged and tracked, and there is clear contact information there for everybody involved and for the responsible individuals. I have no idea how that would be created or what Project (if any) would "host" it. We could also set up some kind of banners/templates for easy use/labelling....
- list all accounts and activities on the boss' user page, and have each employee link to that page, on their user pages.
There may well be other or better ways to ensure transparency and allow the community to track/audit their work.
I am posting a notice of this discussion at WP:COIN, too. Thoughts? Jytdog (talk) 15:46, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- You can set up a Wikipedia-space "project page", as I've done for my Wikipedian-in-Residence roles at Wikipedia:WikiProject CRUK and Wikipedia:WikiProject Royal Society. As you say, where COI is a concern it is key that this lists the editors involved. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 16:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
- I have no judgment on this proposal, but if anyone would like to explore the Wikipedia Education Program's software interface, training starts at Wikipedia:Education program and goes on with a request for a userright at Wikipedia:Education noticeboard. I help people use this interface. Anyone with an affiliation with WikiProject Medicine is welcome to contact me for a tour of the functionality of it.
We can't keep up with what the Education Program is doing to med articles, and now more paid editing? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
*First I'd say that the FDA is not going to stop them because as near as I can say they are following the FDAs guidance to a "T" (and in my humble opinion, anyone participating in this discussion should read that document immediately if they have not already). I think they've made a good faith effort to get into compliance, and as near as I can tell the "addition of positive information and removal of negative information " that occurred consisted entirely of updating and correcting mischaracterizations of what cited sources actually said. Maybe I'm just a voice in the wilderness here, but I find the level of concern here striking given how casually we allow unidentified IPs, those engaged in litigation against manufacturers, and activists of all sorts to edit at will. As I documented here on a prior thread, the. TMS article was more accurate after they edited it than before. Thats more than you can say for about half of randomly chosen edits to medical articles here. Forty percent of SSRI edits and 43 percent of Tylenol edits are by IPs. I find this obsession with a self identified entity that is subject to FDA sanctions if they post anything that is incorrect difficult to understand.
I'll be way too honest here and say the following: Given the reception of hostility and suspicion that I've seen directed toward this group that seems to be self-identified, legally obligated to present information accurately, and sincerely trying to follow the rules, in addition to the hostile response I recieved when I first started editing here and attempted to correct inaccuracies on the fluoroquinoline articles, I would not recommend this path to anyone. If a friend of mine noted that horribly inaccurate information about his company or her organization had been posted here, I'd suggest that they just go find a local Starbucks, log on, and fix it as an IP. Because unlike many who attempt to approach Wikipedia in a spirit of transperancy, IP's are welcome or at least much more likely to be left alone. Formerly 98 (talk) 21:50, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
::::What I'm saying is that everyone ought to try to relax a little bit. Corporate <> evil. All this intensity and suggestions of "covert advertising" and "insist that they leave comments on the Talk page only, and then ignore those comments" are way over the top based on any behavior that has been seen so far. We have openly SPA accounts that operate here daily, and they are not under legal obligation from the FDA to 1) present materially truthfully, and 2) only correct unfavorable incorrect information if they also correct any favorable incorrect information found in the same article. An no one has insisted that they be restricted to leaving comments on the talk page, and that maybe it would be best if we then ignored those comments.
Hi, my name is Siva Nadarajah, General Manager at IMS Health. My division manages the Wikipedia contribution service at IMS Health. Thank you so much for all your valuable input and discussions around our presence here. First and foremost, I'd like to apologize for the wrong start. I can clearly see my team has made serious mistakes and violated some of the policies of Wikipedia. I'd like to confirm and give assurance that we are very committed to follow the rules of Wikipedia. We'd like to propose the following: Please let us know if any of you have concerns around our approach.
1) We will create individual accounts for each and every editor who will be contributing. These accounts will be tied to the individual's IMS company email account. In the event of the employee's departure from the company, we will deactivate the account so that the person does not use the account outside of IMS Health.
2) We will disclose our clients in each and every edit request. That is actually required by FDA (based on the 2014 guidelines). IMS is legally obliged to do this.
3) We will create one master account for IMS Health and list all individuals who will be contributing. This account will be tied to a single email account within IMS Health(example: wikipedia_master@imshealth.com). This account will be not be allowed to make any edits or suggestions. I don't want this account to be tied to a person because people may not stay with the company forever.
Please let me know your thoughts. Also, if it makes easier to have a call, please send me an email.
Thank you so much and I really appreciate all of you spending your valuable personal time cleaning up the mess we created. Siva Nadarajah --Nadakumar (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Regarding enforcement, I have spoken with someone with the Federal Trade Commission, which is cited in the Terms of Use as requiring disclosure of a financial connection online, and they were interested in hearing examples where misleading product claims were successfully made in Wikipedia article-space by someone with a non-disclosed financial connection. If anyone comes across example(s) that have not been corrected, I'd love to hear them by email.
Regarding a good Wikipedia essay, Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide remains the most widely recognized essay on how to participate on Wikipedia with a conflict of interest and is easier to understand than WP:COI, which is filled with Wikipedia jargon, errors, and other issues.
Regarding general advice, I am confused as to whether IMS is a publisher of analyst reports participating with a self-citation COI, or if they are opening shop as a paid editing service to write about pharmaceutical businesses. For example, for self-citation I would refer them to Pete Forsyth and suggest direct, disclosed editing. For paid editing on behalf of pharma clients, I would recommend gaining copious experience as a volunteer first + I would caution that most medical articles are already handled well by the community; I have not seen very many good opportunities for ethical participation in this particular sector. Most pharma companies feel certain Wikipedia articles are unfair/incorrect, whereas they are not actually. CorporateM (Talk) 18:20, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikilite
Is willing to release some of their images under a CC BY SA license so that we may use them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
More support for not using the popular press
[20] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
NCCAM as a MEDRS?
I'm not sure if we have dealt with this source or situation before, but generally single primary sources, even if they are high quality (non-review) pieces of research, are not considered to meet the bar of quality we require of a MEDRS source. We generally prefer reviews of multiple (hopefully high quality) pieces of research.
What happens with NCCAM, which often uses such sources (single pieces of research) in their statements, and then editors use NCCAM as a RS, but claim it's a MEDRS? Is it a MEDRS when it's not quoting a review, but a single piece of (usually favorable) research?
The situation at hand is my restoration of MEDRS tags which questioned the quality of NCCAM refs. My edit summary: "Reverted good faith edits by Miracle dream (talk): Our MEDRS standard is higher than NCCAM, which is an advocacy agency, controlled by AM partisans. (TW))" A well-known defender of alternative medicine then reverted me.
The POV of whoever added those tags, which I share, is obviously disputed, including by TimidGuy, whose edit summary said this: "Undid revision 638019361 by QuackGuru (talk) rv Why are NCCAM statements MEDRS violations? This is clearly compliant."
Now I'm here and want to see what a discussion determines. I obviously believe that NCCAM is not itself a MEDRS source. It all depends on how it's used. An appeal to authority is especially dubious when referring to NCCAM, which secures its funding by endlessly wasting taxpayer money on research of non evidence-based methods which have no hope of working, even while it's forced to admit that most alternative medicine is not backed by good evidence. I subscribe to their reports, and it's always dismal reading for any true believer in nonsense methods, such as homeopathy. At present it seems that QG is alone against several pro-AM editors. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- NCCAM is part of the NIH. Formally (i.e., considering the POV-independent factors that our content policies care about), it is exactly as reliable as any other part of the NIH. The fact that it is criticized by people who resent its funding or are irritated with some of its conclusions is exactly as irrelevant as the fact that the same types of complaints are lodged against other parts of the NIH (including, to give only two common examples, NIMH, run by "pro-psychiatry cronies" and NCI, which is owned by pro-breast cancer industry cronies).
- No source is "reliable". No source is "MEDRS". It is only possible to determine whether a source is reliable when you compare it to the exact statement being supported.
- In the instant case, the statement says, "A 2012 analysis of data on individual participants in acupuncture studies looked at migraine and tension headaches. The analysis showed that actual acupuncture was more effective than either no acupuncture or simulated acupuncture in reducing headache frequency or severity."
- The source cited was What the Science Says About the Effectiveness of Acupuncture-For Heaache from National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.
- The relevant contents of the NCCAM website are, "A 2012 analysis of data on individual participants in acupuncture studies looked at migraine and tension headaches. The analysis showed that actual acupuncture was more effective than either no acupuncture or simulated acupuncture in reducing headache frequency or severity"--word-for-word what the NCCAM webpage says. (There's no copyvio here, because there's no copyright in US government works.)
- Is this webpage reliable for these contents (i.e., for describing the contents of some other source)? Yes.
- Would the underlying "analysis of data in...[multiple] acupuncture studies" be exactly the sort of meta-analysis that MEDRS promotes? Yes. Or, at least, it is presumably the sort of source that MEDRS holds in highest esteem, although it's possible that there would be some serious failing (e.g., not ever having been published).
- In particular, it would be really silly to say that it's excellent for a Wikipedia editor to read that meta-analysis and write his own description of it, but that it's impossibly bad to have actual professionals read that study and write a description of it. Amateurs are not always better than professionals, especially when it comes to evaluating something technical. Also, if your information comes from NCCAM, then WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT applies, and you aren't permitted to cite the original meta-analysis (unless and until you obtain the paper and read it).
As a side note, one of the things that is annoying about the disputes on that subject is that the anti-acupuncture people seem to take the view that acupuncture must be proven not merely to make people feel better, but to make people feel better through the exact mechanism claimed. If getting a speech about "meridians" and sticking some needles in a particular spot (or sacrificing a rubber chicken at midnight during a full moon, or swallowing large pills, or whatever ritual you want) reduces the number of headaches, then that's great news for the world. Even if the mechanism involves nothing more than cultural conditioning (so it only reduces the number of headaches for people who are in the relevant culture), then that's great news. Wikipedia is not in the business of suppressing scientific data about the number of headaches being reduced (even if it's just slightly reduced, which is what I've assumed), just because the underlying mechanism claimed for reducing them involves rather silly mystical things like "meridians". There will be studies that favor this treatment for some subjective symptoms, and studies that don't. We should present both and quit trying to suppress the "wrong" POV. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- I personally have a pretty dim view of NCCAM (although it has improved somewhat over time from its especially inauspicious beginnings). That said, NCCAM clearly meets our sourcing bar as described in WP:MEDRS; it's part of the NIH and thus falls under "reputable major medical and scientific bodies". MastCell Talk 21:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ There seems to be some confusion here. NCCAM does carry some weight, but it is not the publishing body. It cites published research, and it's the research which is either MEDRS compliant or not. Just because NCCAM cites a single person opinion piece (for example), does not elevate that opinion piece to the level of a high quality MEDRS citation here. It is the research, not its mention by NCCAM, which we must judge. In this instance (this thread), IIRC, NCCAM was citing a piece of primary research which we would not consider MEDRS compliant. That is why I objected.
OTOH, if NCCAM cites a true literature review of high quality research, then we would judge that literature review as MEDRS compliant, but not because it was cited by NCCAM. It is the actual research which is covered by MEDRS, not the source or because it was cited by NCCAM.
We still consider sources, since we aren't supposed to forsake the use of common sense, but even the highest rated source, for example The Lancet, would not elevate a single study primary source piece of research to the level of a MEDRS compliant source. It's not a literature review, and that's what we want. We want to see what happens after that piece of research has been judged and replicated by many others, and a review is then written about that situation. THAT'S what we consider a MEDRS compliant source we can use here.
In that sense, our MEDRS standards are higher than even The Lancet's standards. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Other issues at Acupuncture
An editor restored the MEDRS violations and deleted text from the safety section among other problems. See Talk:Acupuncture#TCM_is_largely_pseudoscience_according_to_the_source_presented. This is the version before the MEDRS violations was restored. Please check the edit history. QuackGuru (talk) 02:38, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Ordering of sections of e-cigs
A RfC is started again here Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Ordering_of_sections_2 Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
An interesting review on salt
[28] Wondering how peopl would summarize it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Infobox bacterial labs
{{Infobox bacterial labs}} has only one transclusion. Is it of any use? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:44, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
The following articles have very poor reliance to WP:MEDRS. I've done some cleaning, but there is so much that needs to be removed. -- CFCF ? (email) 21:00, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
- Entheogen
- Hallucinogen
Will add more if/when I find them-- CFCF ? (email) 21:00, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Lists of side effects
Many of our drug articles (and the psychiatric drug articles in particular) feature extremely detailed lists of "Side effects", in with subheadings estimating incidence in ranges of ">10%", "1 to 10%", etc, in some cases going all the way down to "0.01% to 0.1%". Unfortunately, these listings are extremely misleading, as the terms "side effects" and "adverse effects" are used throughout to describe what are actually adverse events. In the case of bupropion for example we have the following rates quoted for the drug. I've added the rates seen in the placebo arm of the clinical trials below, these rates are NOT shown in the article.
In addition, we list about 50 "adverse effects" with an incidence of 0.01 to 0.1%. a rate of 0.01% is one per 10,000, which would not normally be seen in a development program of about 3000 patients, so these are presumably all from spontaneous reports, and of unknown causation. They are "adverse events" and not "adverse effects"
I'm not quite sure what to do about these. Given the large and active anti-psychiatry group on Wikipedia, I'm suspicous that we have these very large (and apparently partly fictitious) lists of "adverse effects" that seem to be selectively added to psychiatry drug articles. I was going to rename "adverse effects" as adverse events, but I'm not sure how to phrase that for the average reader. And I suspect it will be a tremendous amount of work to go through each list and weed out the fictious entries.
Any thoughts.
Formerly 98 (talk) 16:01, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Medical Group Visits
Dear medical experts: There are a lot of citations attached to the this old AfC draft. Is this a notable topic? Should the page be kept and improved? It's about to be deleted as stale. --Anne Delong (talk) 23:25, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
New introduction for South Beach Diet
Hello again, all. I have been working on making updates to the 'South Beach Diet article along with several regular editors of this WikiProject. It has been an ongoing process since August, with many lengthy discussions on the Talk page. I believe we've made progress, but there are still several outstanding issues, including updating the introduction paragraph. I just proposed new text which addresses the critiques made of my last draft and I am hoping to find editors here to review it. I should note that I do not make direct edits myself as I have a financial COI, and instead ask other editors to provide feedback on my proposed changes and make any edits as they see fit, or offer counter suggestions. Thanks in advance, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 02:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Monkey Christmas everyone!
...including the great emergency response team :)) 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Further comments about sourcing and paraphasing
here if people have a moment. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Caps
How do we capitalize a title like this Gleason Grading System?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Caffeine used to treat asthma
Discussion here Talk:Caffeine/Archive 1#Asthma Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:46, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Depictions of the Black Death
Hello everyone,
I'm looking for some help making sure that this image is used correctly across various Wikipedias. An academic article in The Medieval Globe has pointed out that the image has often been used to illustrate the Bubonic Plague (the Black Death), but that in fact it represents leprosy.
As things currently stand, User:Rmhermen has very helpfully removed the image from the English Wikipedia, and a few other languages. However, even excluding use in user boxes (en.wp) and as decoration in categories (fr.wp), the file has pretty wide usage in other languages. Is there anyone who would be able to help with one of the languages where the image is still used? Replacing the image is simple enough, but explaining why if someone objects (or leaving a short explanation on the relevant talk pages) would make the changes more likely to stick.
Because it helps to have an alternative image to make sure the Omne Bonum illustration isn't reintroducing by a well-meaning editor, here is one. I've been in touch with one of the authors of the paper and depictions of the Black Death online aren't easy to come by.
The article explaining the misinterpretations is available as an open access PDF here. Page 312 is particularly worth a read. The great thing about the article being open access is that we can see it and act on it quickly. Because Wikipedia is the first port of call for many people, it's important we do our best for our readers. Any help replacing this image would be very much appreciated. Nev1 (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Radiation from smart meters
Editors might wish to use material from this report.
- Self-reporting of symptom development from exposure to radiofrequency fields of wireless smart meters in Victoria, Australia: a case series - PubMed - NCBI (November 2014)
--Wavelength (talk) 02:15, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Further comment on WP:Wikicredit
Is requested here [29] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:12, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Pharmacological torture
Seeking input to the discussion on the article talk page for Pharmacological torture. In particular,
1. Whether reliable sources support characterizing the administration of the antimalarial drug mefloquine to prisoners from malaria endemic countries at normal therapeutic doses, but without prior testing for infection, as a form of torture
2. Whether MEDRS-compliant sourcing would be needed for such a characterization.
In passing I'd like to note the Mefloquine article may not be a particularly reliable source for information about the drug. I've noted that in at least once place that a source document has been misquoted in a way that significantly changes the meaning of the quote. So the entire article probably needs to be checked to ensure that the statements actually reflect what is in the source (sigh).
Thanks Formerly 98 (talk) 15:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Dr. Rana
Dear medical experts: I have been looking for references to improve this old AfC draft about a medical specialist, but without much luck. Maybe I don't know where to look. Is this a notable person? --Anne Delong (talk) 04:46, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
- I doubt it. His h-index is only 5 according to Google Scholar, and while he is the editor in chief of the Journal of Parkinsonism and Restless Legs Syndrome, this journal doesn't appear to be "major" enough to meet WP:PROF. Everymorning talk 00:46, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Help with starting new Wikiproject
I am trying to get this assess table to work Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sanitation#How_to_help. Does anyone know how to fix it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:04, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
WikiCup 2015
Hi there; this is just a quick note to let you all know that the 2015 WikiCup will begin on January 1st. The WikiCup is an annual competition to encourage high-quality contributions to Wikipedia by adding a little friendly competition to editing. At the time of writing, more than fifty users have signed up to take part in the competition; interested parties, no matter their level of experience or their editing interests, are warmly invited to sign up. Questions are welcome on the WikiCup talk page. Thanks! Miyagawa (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
The small line of links at the bottom of the navbox has now changed to an "Index of..." with "Description", "Disease" and Treatment" subsections. This will affect almost all medical, anatomy and pharmacology navboxes. As an example, see here:
The links at the bottom ("Index of heart...") are what have changed. A full list is at Template:Medicine navs.
Cheers, --Tom (LT) (talk) 23:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Feedback
Please leave feedback here: Template_talk:Medicine_navs#Feedback_after_roundtable_changes
23:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
PR firm writing an article about a doctor
I came across the article Mark S. Komrad, which appears to have been written by a PR firm, Stoosh PR (who were kind enough to identify themselves in their username, but haven't shown any other explicit acknowledgement of their status as paid editors). While they seem open to toning down the advert-sounding-ness of their original effort, the article could certainly benefit from some outside attention, so I thought I'd bring it up here. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:10, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Beryllium lymphocyte proliferation test and Beryllium poisoning
Dear medical experts: This old AfC submission was declined with the suggestion that content be added to the Beryllium poisoning article. Would someone with medical knowledge like to move any appropriate content, while crediting Jparris3 in the edit summary? If so, the AfC draft can be moved to mainspace as a redirect, and I can add the appropriate merge templates if needful. Thanks... --Anne Delong (talk) 03:13, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Diabetes 2015
The updated guidelines for diabetes:
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/Supplement_1
-A1candidate (talk) 12:22, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Donation of pathology images
Supporters of Wikimedia India just announced that The Department of Pathology at Calicut Medical College in Kerala has donated some images and uploaded them to Wikimedia Commons at Commons:Category:Images from Department of Pathology, Calicut Medical College. Interested persons may wish to add any of these images to Wikimedia articles.
This project was organized by a collaboration between that school, Wikimedia India, and the Centre for Internet and Society (India).
In the past few months the Wikimedia chapter in India, Wikimedia India, has had some turnover in board governance. Its new leadership has members who are particularly interested in developing health content and I hope that more content is coming. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:42, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
interesting read....ebola/west africa
[31] and [32]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:51, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Hey there
Just wanted to say hello. I am new on Wikipedia editing and interested in making Autoimmune articles better. Currently working on the Relapsing polychondritis article. EllenvanderVeen (talk) 13:20, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Cerebellum
Cerebellum is at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Cerebellum/archive1, and Looie496 has mostly cleaned it up. I'm going to be going through checking prose and MOS-y stuff, but it would be nice if someone medical would have a look before the FA is Kept. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
RfC notification
Hello everyone, there is an RFC that people from this project may be interested in commenting on: Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#RfC: Is the Nature article an appropriate source for the claim it is attached to?. Thank you for your feedback. r?ana? (talk) 21:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Weird and funny category
Sorry for adding so many questions haha, but I found this interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Autoimmune_diseases Look at J, Joelle. It is a person, and she has an autoimmune disease, but should we add her to that list? It seems a bit off compared to the rest. What do you guys think? EllenvanderVeen (talk) 21:27, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Maybe we should add a sub-category or another category about persons with autoimmune diseases? EllenvanderVeen (talk) 21:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedian-In-Residence at NIOSH
Hello WikiProject Medicine! I wanted to let you all know that I'm the new Wikipedian-in-Residence at NIOSH, the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. Usually I edit as User:Keilana but for the purposes of this project, I'll be using this account. There'll be a COI notice on my user page and a soon-to-come WikiProject NIOSH/WikiProject Occupational Safety and Health, so if you have any interest in these topics, many new resources will be coming your way! Watch this space for more details. :) Best, Emily Temple-Wood (NIOSH) (talk) 21:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Mechanisms (or biology) of disease?
I've drafted a MEDMOS proposal (permalink) regarding one of our section headings. I realize that the timing of this proposal may seem a bit perverse following the recent heading change. I'd just like to reassure everyone here that I have no particular axe to grind and I'm not trying to "push through" anything. I just feel that terminological appropriateness is relevant to the encyclopedia, and needn't necessarily conflict with accessibility considerations. 109.158.8.201 (talk) 12:30, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
"biological mechanisms"[33] ?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree that there are sections that should be simplified to aid readabiliy. Taking Lung cancer#Pathogenesis as an example (since you've mentioned this), it is possible to summarize and simplify the section in this manner:
As you can see, it's not difficult to summarize the text into a single paragraph. I believe the above paragraph could be well-understood by any reader with a sufficient amount of basic education. The rest of the information should be moved to a seperate article ("Pathology of lung cancer"). The actual difficulty lies in finding trained medical experts to do the work. -A1candidate (talk) 14:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
as stated above, it would be best to "simplify technical terms for readers", however, biological mechanisms can be used/mixed with other more specific terms , while not endangering the intent of the article, paragraph or sentence--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:27, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Acupuncture arbitration request
WikiProject Medicine members may be interested in taking a look at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Acupuncture, a new case request filed yesterday. NW (Talk) 14:26, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Need some help with opening a few articles
Hey guys, I want to add a section about the history of Relapsing polychondritis but I can not open the oldest articles about this on Pubmed. Can anyone have a look and send them to me by wikipedia or e-mail me at e.m.w.vanderveen@students.uu.nl
The articles I am looking for:
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14431246
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13981402
- And the oldest one from 1923: Jaksch-Wartenhorst R. Polychondropathia. Wien Arch F Inn Med. 1923;6:93-100
If you have any other idea about this, that would be welcome also Thank you very much! EllenvanderVeen (talk) 19:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I agree on that actually, unforturnally I have searched hours and hours for it and only found secondary news articles about it. like this one: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/331475-overview Or a little older from the 60's like this one: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1177828 So I thought that the best thing I could do is look at those articles and see if the secondary articles are right. I don't know, what do you think I should do? EllenvanderVeen (talk) 20:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
I tried too,(do what Doc James says get recent reviews)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Some brief historical notes here (and here[no Google preview]). Another fairly recent reliable source is PMID 12077711 - it should contain historical information based on a review of the literature, but unfortunately it's paywalled. 86.181.67.166 (talk) 22:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
One small suggestion is that MAGIC syndrome should be mentioned and linked in the article somewhere. Matthew Ferguson 57 (talk) 00:16, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
- Bulleted list item
Infobox Templates is Missing a Template
Hi, I think that infobox templates should include one for Cosmetic Procedures. This is for procedures such as male circumcision and plastic surgery. Many pediatric organizations in the world think that male circumcision has no medical benefit, so the procedure (in these regions ) would be primarily cosmetic or religious. I think that cosmetic would be the best word here.
I work primarily on the male circumcision page. Based on the information I have obtained I have learned that this procedure has varying medical benefit dependent on which country you are observing. For some nations it does have a benefit, for others it is insignificant. It would help if we had an infobox for cosmetic on the infoboxes page. This would better help represent the procedure on the page for male circumcision. I also think that having a cosmetic infobox would help the overall medical literature on Wikipedia. There are medical practices, such as plastic surgery, that are performed by medical professionals for primarily cosmetic reasons.
JohnP 19:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk o contribs)
Yeah. But this is neutral, because many circumcisions would be classified as cosmetic by country's major pediatric organization's policy guidelines, while others are therapeutic in the case of medical interventions or if the country finds circumcision to be a cost effective intervention to prevent certain diseases. This is supported by the policy statements regarding circumcision from most of the world's organizations. In the US, neonatal circumcision may still be defined as therapeutic because circumcision is a cost effective procedure for reducing some diseases; however, this is not the same in Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, or Britain. We need to have an infobox labeled cosmetic so that the procedure is labeled as both a cosmetic procedure and intervention. This is due to the fact that it can be either of these things in different cases.
This would be neutral since the policy guidelines in Australia, the Netherlands, Britain, and Canada have already labeled infant circumcision in the most cases as cosmetic; so the procedure is already both cosmetic and therapeutic and as a result we should label it as such.
JohnP 02:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnPRsrcher (talk o contribs)
To the first argument. Yes I am aware that readers don't see the infobox, still it is important that we label the procedure by what it is classified as according to law. In many areas the law says that it is cosmetic, so shouldn't we also add a label to indicate that it is cosmetic?
In addition, I don't see any infoboxes on the page that would be interpreted as a copy of cosmetic. It's entirely individual. The only other infobox that is really related to it is intervention. This would make it never be deleted, and applicable to medical procedures that need it.
This does not have the potential to cause drama and edit wars. Once we have the infobox I will propose to add it to the circumcision page. The consensus of the other editors will determine if it is added or not.
In addition, it has one added benefit. Plastic surgery can be classified as a medical procedure with its own infobox.
JohnP 03:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Honestly breast surgery is listed as an intervention even though it in reality is both cosmetic and an intervention. It's the same for a nose job as well (rhinoplasty.) Just wanted to point out that a lot of our surgeries aren't classified correctly. Mamyles I'm not trying to add a yes or no indicator, rather you should be able to just use both infoboxes. WhatamIdoing JFW
JohnP (talk) 02:03, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
How about this: you could just add an infobox for intervention/cosmetic. Then we could just use this infobox. Also other pages could make use of it.
JohnP (talk) 00:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Starting back with a bang
Hey everyone. Up until 6 months ago I was editing here frequently but I took a Wikibreak for a while due to worklife. I came back last week to help with an article and (of course) within 2 days of starting someone decides to add a bunch of commercial stuff to the Dental implant article. Six months away and the article stayed clean then within 2 days of returning I'm in an edit-war with what appears to be a company that wants their stuff on the page! I removed the material and left a message on the user page, but it's been replaced. Can someone else take a look at the article and User:FixtTeeth. They openly say it's a procedure they're plugging, so I think it's just lack of knowledge. Sorry for the drama so soon. Ian Furst (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Source of the article : Wikipedia
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